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Ivan Illich in Conversation [Paperback]

David Cayley
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Book Description

June 9 1992 In Conversation

For more than fifteen years, iconoclastic thinker Ivan Illich refused to be interviewed. Finally, in 1988, CBC's David Cayley persuaded Illich to record a conversation. This first interview led to additional sessoins that continued until 1992 and are now gathered in Ivan Illich in Conversation.

In these fascinating conversations, which range over a wide selection of the celebrated thinker's published work and public career, Illich's brilliant mind alights on topics of great contemporary interest, including education, history, language, politics, and the church.


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A few years ago, David Cayley began working on a program on Uwe Poerksen's Plastikwörter for CBC-Radio's Ideas. He knows little German. He asked his wife, Jutta Mason, to write a précis of the book. She left Germany when she was nine, so she has not really lived in her native language for a long time. As they struggled, they found they were doing a whole translation.

It was not easy, but what's strange is that it was possible. Poerksen's book is about a set of German words. In English, it is about a set of English words, and is still Poerksen's book. The success of these amateur, almost unwilling translators is uncanny-rather frightening, as if it were a symptom of an international language plague.

Am I being melodramatic? Well, though Plastic Words is not a melodrama, it is a horror story. Or rather, this scholarly work of linguistics is a challenge to genre criticism: it is a sober and coherent analysis that is pert and mischievous; soundly based in fact, it is very close to imaginative satire, drawing explicitly on Gulliver's Travels and 1984.
As a reporter, I have gone to countless "professional development" conferences. And I have read too many government and business documents for my own good. What Poerksen says about the state of languages in this time is true.

What does he say? The core is that words like "process", "development", "system", "information", and "communication" are now often used without real meaning, without substance, but nonetheless to lay claim to authority-the authority of science and expertise, the appearance of competence. Discourse of this kind prevails in large and important spheres of human activity.

"Amoeba words" or "plastic words" begin in the speech that we all speak to each other, in "the vernacular", a language full of metaphor.

Plastic words are extremely general. Vernacular words can be very general, too, but that is because they are flexible and nuanced; they embrace many associated senses—Poerksen gives "love" as an example—and take on specific meaning and colour from a particular context.

Scientists draw on the vernacular for their technical terms, for their legitimate jargon. They give or try to give them precision, independent of context. Often, abstractions have metaphors in their pedigrees.

In the late twentieth century, some scientific terms have come back into the vernacular, still clothed with the prestige of science. They have lost their exactitude, without regaining colour, tone, voice, and the accompaniment of gestures: their life in context. Poerksen's definition is that they are "connotative stereotypes": they have associations, they connote, but they do not designate anything specific. They are like the waves that result from a stone being thrown into water, if there could be such waves without a central point of impact, without a stone….

Ivan Illich in Conversation puts Plastic Words in a broad context. For one thing, it was Illich who urged Poerksen to write it. I will not try to give a comprehensive account of this book—still less of this man who defies categorization, but who now calls himself a historian. But I felt compelled to read it between two readings of Poerksen's book, to make sense of some of the vistas that it opens up.

This long interview stretches the genre; it is like and unlike Cayley's Northrop Frye in Conversation and George Grant in Conversation—like in its thoroughness, in its successful presentation of all the main aspects of a thinker's thought, unlike in that Illich keeps remarking on the strangeness of what Cayley and he are doing. He questions even the excellence of the interviewer's preparation, saying how odd it is to be asked now to give accounts of all his writings over the years, as if he were still thinking the same thoughts, making the same arguments. As a rule, he refuses to be interviewed but, happening to meet Cayley in the company of his children, admired the feeling he sensed between them and their father.

This triad of interviews could almost make sense as one work in three volumes: many of Illich's themes overlap with those of Grant and Frye and other Canadians, mostly obviously Innis and McLuhan. I would add—to this set of writers somehow looking at technology and technocracy from inside and yet from a distance—Jane Jacobs, Arthur Kroker, and the comparatively neglected Hilda Neatby, whose So Little for the Mind, often dismissed as another "back to basics" book on education, contains among other things a splendid criticism of expertocracy that is quite like Poerksen's. Strangely, Neatby's account of Canadian education and ideology in the forties and fifties can hardly have been true at the time, but it has become true of the last-third-of-this-century world that Plastic Words presents.

Illich, with Cayley, discusses his mostly dissident views of schools, medicine, reading, technology, reading, international development, gender, and other matters, all in a long perspective. He is bracing. To many, he will seem to be a crank, and in some sense, he is—rather like Rousseau.

Poerksen comes up a few times, most notably in the final chapter, an interview that took place after the rest of the book. Here Illich maintains that "life" has become an idol. He had said to Poerksen that "life" is a plastic word, indeed the worst of them; Poerksen got angry with him, enough not to want to talk about it again for several months. I suspect the reason was that Poerksen is a romantic as well as a systematic scholar-two things that are compatible, in Germany and elsewhere—and may be a bit of a vitalist himself. If Illich is a romantic, he is one who like Carlyle and Nietzsche protests against romanticism.

The meaning of "life" is probably too loaded an issue for this to be even a powerfully vacuous plastic word. Religiosity about "life" is real, and may be as terrible as Illich thinks, but should be faced not just in its present ubiquitousness, but in its slightly earlier philosophical seriousness: with Bergson (who coined élan vital, translated by Shaw and others as "life force"), and with Nietzsche, for whom Leben often seems to be the great criterion, the overarching goal. One would do well to read, on this, C. S. Lewis's chapter on "Life" in his Studies in Words.

Illich seems in the end to be without an agenda, except for "embracing powerlessness". The same might be said of Grant or Simone Weil; something similar might be said of the later Heidegger. But this is hard to take, hard to swallow, hard to do anything with, for most of us. Poerksen does and does not enter into the full nightmare vision. Of the subject of this book of his, he says, "It is not always possible to approach it without breaking out into a sweat and feeling dizzy."

Before I read Poerksen, I sometimes reassured myself about the abstractions of contemporary discourse; I doubted that these were really very different from those of other periods, or worse. For example, past some splendid peak of scholasticism, many of the schoolmen may have lost themselves in their technical terms, so that it was time for a shake-out, for a return to a more natural, and more literary, speech. This is a cycle with phases that are to be expected. But Plastic Words—fun as it is-makes one think that there is something truly peculiar about these times of ours, and peculiarly undesirable. It is a book that makes sense of much that one has glimpsed, or dimly discerned.

Poerksen is far from rejecting scientific thought. Rather, plastic words are a perverse mingling of two languages. But scientism, or the religiosity of science, is so strong that we cannot expect to see a time in which the prestige of science does not produce plastic words and expertocracy.

He stops short of "embracing powerlessness"; he may sweat and get dizzy, but he is also a comic artist. I think his romanticism and his sense of humour are linked to his practicality. There are still small things that can be done.

For one thing, we can refrain from using plastic words, and from muddling the scientific and vernacular spheres. Sensibly, he is not advocating a new purism; we may still say "structure" or "role" or "factor", but he asks us not to use them in the "plastic" way.

For another, we can make nuisances of ourselves in Freiburg, or wherever else we may be.
Gerald Owen (Books in Canada) -- Books in Canada

About the Author

David Cayley is a producer at CBC Radio as well as a writer. He is the author of The Rivers North of the Future and The Expanding Prison which began as a series of broadcasts for Ideas. Cayley is also a contributor to Anansi's In Conversation series, which includes books on Ivan Illich, Northrop Frye, and George Grant. He lives in Toronto.

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Most helpful customer reviews
5.0 out of 5 stars A Good Introduction to Illich's Thought and Life Dec 12 2003
Format:Paperback
Ivan Illich "got it" about the modern world in a way that few others have done. He recently died, and I miss him very much. I met him once at Penn State, which was an experience I treasure -- it's a treat to met a person whose work can move you like Illich's work does for me. This book collects his views on a wide range of ideas -- technology, medicine, loss of the vernacular, and many more. The interview format makes it easy to follow his thought. I bought copies for all of my grown kids, I don't know if it resonated with them as it did for me. Highly recommended.
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Amazon.com: 4.8 out of 5 stars  9 reviews
42 of 43 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Common Sense April 10 2005
By Panopticonman - Published on Amazon.com
Format:Paperback|Verified Purchase
The New York Times has been of many minds about Ivan Illich, beginning with its review of "Deschooling Society" in 1971. According to The Times' December 4, 2002 obituary of Illich, the Times reviewer found the book to be "'a mind-bending litany of abstraction' and a distraction from schools' all too real problems." In that same year however, Anatole Broyard found Illich's critiques "illuminating." But this was apparently a burst of youthful enthusiasm, for twenty years later in 1989, Broyard repented his earlier endorsement of Illich: in an article about winnowing down his library he said he would "especially" discard Mr. Illich's works.

It's not surprising Illich's project flummoxed the NYTimes. As progressive advocates of the modern project, and now the last outpost of bourgeoisie brownstone liberalism, the Times' promulgates a kind of idealist pragmatic middle ground where technocrats can dispassionately design and administer systems that will promote the Good and the Beautiful. Illich, on the other hand, ultimately rejected the modern project, whatever its political orientation, because he viewed it as inherently corrupt. In his earlier writings in the early 70s, such as TOOLS FOR CONVIVIALITY, he believed that it might be possible to stop, rethink and humanize mankind's relationship with man and the earth. But by the end of his life he saw that the modernist project could not be arrested in its destructive disenchantment of the earth and humankind.

The socio-philosophes employed by the Times were more willing to hear these critiques during the high-water mark of radical politics in the late 60s and early 70s. The center of political gravity was left of center then, pulling the pragmatic middle of The Times along with it. Now, of course, the Times employ liberal idealist philosophers like Thomas Friedman who preach the neo-liberal creed of economic expansion as the means to usher in a democratic millennium. Or David Brooks, the liberal's favorite conservative, who, like Friedman, routinely spouts tendentious and intellectually dishonest examples to buttress his dogmatic assertions on the moral rightness of the invasion of southern or eastern nations by Western powers. It's not surprising that in the current environment the NY Times obituary would characterize Illich's critique as "watered-down Marxism." In fact, Illich's critique is actually considerably more radical. Marx believed that once the expropriators were expropriated and the state withered away a worker's paradise would ensue. He didn't want to arrest industrialization, he wanted the workers to have control over their destiny. Illich thought the whole project was monstrous, no matter who owned or ran it.

Illich believed that the penetration of systems logic into the lifeworld had to be opposed on an individual basis. One way to do this was to engage in deep compassionate friendships. Another was to be sensitive to and eschew the kind of infernal comparisons technocrats make between people and technologies, i.e., that humans are systems consisting of software and hardware, inputs and outputs. As part of this, he also attacked the technocratic reconceptualization of mankind through new definitions of old words and their former meanings, e.g., the new notion of "life" as some general entity that can be nurtured on some general level, presumably by a technocrat or politician, i.e., the "culture of life." Rather he insisted that life is embodied in and inseparable from biological entities -- that there is no life, only lives. Illich also suggested reading history, especially the writings of key monastics from the 12th century, as a way to defamiliarize oneself the hegemonic power of the current version of "common sense" and so understand that other ways of living and interacting with each other and with the world were possible, and necessary. He sought by such readings to demonstrate that beyond a certain level of institutionalized expertise, most experts and their expert systems are actually counterproductive.

Illich's critique cannot be countenanced these days when the ideology of technical progress has so permeated us that the notion of organ repair kits (from our clones) seems like a good idea. It seems clear now that the desacralization of the lifeworld cannot be stopped. The spark of hope that it might was extinguished by the counterrevolution of the bosses in the mid-70s. The NY Times meekly fell back into line along with just about everyone else. Illich was a conscientious objector to modernism to the last, preferring to let a cancer on his jaw take his life slowly and painfully rather than surrender himself and his dignity to the anti-human ethos of the medico-technologico community.

IVAN ILLICH IN CONVERSATION is an excellent introduction to Illich's radical humanist perspective.
19 of 19 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Appetizer April 17 2005
By James Hardt - Published on Amazon.com
Format:Paperback
Long before I became a librarian I had the good fortune of hearing Illich speak in Las Cruces, NM at NMSU in the early 1970's. The following morning at 8:30 a.m. by chance I met him in the university's library. Those encounters lead me to read a number of his early books. In addition I also heard him speak in Santa Fe, at St. John's College and at the University of Illinois Medical School in Chicago. After his death I ordered this book and THE CHALLENGES OF IVAN ILLICH. Both books capture both the man and his ideas. If one adds THE RIVERS NORTH OF THE FUTURE you can see the great distance he traveled from his early works. These three books should be read in chronological order. You may also want to read the discussion between Illich and J. Krishnamurti in Pupul Jayakar's KRISHNAMURTI; A Biography, Harper, 1985, 302-307.
16 of 16 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars A Good Introduction to Illich's Thought and Life Dec 12 2003
By thomasrodd - Published on Amazon.com
Format:Paperback|Verified Purchase
Ivan Illich "got it" about the modern world in a way that few others have done. He recently died, and I miss him very much. I met him once at Penn State, which was an experience I treasure -- it's a treat to met a person whose work can move you like Illich's work does for me. This book collects his views on a wide range of ideas -- technology, medicine, loss of the vernacular, and many more. The interview format makes it easy to follow his thought. I bought copies for all of my grown kids, I don't know if it resonated with them as it did for me. Highly recommended.
4 of 4 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Leaves you wanting more Sept. 15 2005
By David D. Derauf - Published on Amazon.com
Format:Paperback
Get this book. Read it, reread it, put it away then pick it up and read it again. Illich's ideas can confuse, aggravate, startle, and provoke like only a small handful of thinkers I have ever come across...

There are times reading when I wished I could trade places with Cayley: to tell him: "no, listen, why are you steering the conversation THAT way?!" But by and large it is a wonderful interview.
1 of 1 people found the following review helpful
5.0 out of 5 stars Helpful,challenging discussions with a contrarian Feb. 7 2012
By A. Doug Floyd - Published on Amazon.com
Format:Paperback|Verified Purchase
Ivan Illich makes statements that offend the modern mind. He calls compulsory education a myth-making, mythopoetic ritual. He challenges the confidence of our modern world at virtually every level from education to medicine to technology and more. He shines a light onto our myth of progress, showing how many institutions not only fail in their mission but create more problems. He's the kind guy many folks would prefer to ignore. His challenges are not simply for the sake of being a contrarian, but to help preserve some aspect of our humanity. Illich sees the dehumanizing impacts of many modern, pragmatic approaches to problem solving. If anything, he's worth reading to help create pause. To force us to question ourselves and our culture.

This particular text is helpful because Illich's ideas are introduced via a series of interviews with Canadian broadcaster David Cayley. These interviews are the fruit of a long engagement between the two thinkers, so Cayley understands Illich but also understands how to ask questions that will help Illich clarify some of his unusual pronouncements. If if you disagree with Illich's ideas, you may discover that his challenges helps you to reframe issues in a new light. Illich offers a more thoughtful challenges than many of the over-simplified texts on culture.

For those who are interested, Cayley also recorded a series of interviews with Illich, and wrote another final book of interviews with Illich called, "The Rivers North of the Future." Both books are superb and highly recommended.
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